Episode 280

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Published on:

8th Jun 2024

Ep 280 - MMT Gives Labor Its Wings with Tschaff Reisberg

In this episode, Steve has a conversation with Tschäff (pronounced “Jeff”) Reisberg, the secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council and a professional flight attendant, about the vital role of the labor movement through the lens of MMT.  

They look at the intersection of movement building and labor's role, emphasizing that real economic advocacy should lead to tangible change. Steve contrasts this to the naivety of relying solely on voting within a captured oligarchic system.  

They discuss historical and current labor struggles, touching on the need for transforming unions from business unionism to class struggle-oriented unions. Tschäff shares insights on the positive outcomes of recent labor actions which have revitalized union activity. 


They also talk about the importance of a job guarantee and consider how unions might engage with broader social movements, emphasizing solidarity and the power of labor to enact change by shutting down production. 


Tschäff Reisberg is not only an early proponent of MMT, but is secretary of the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council, and an Association of Professional Flight Attendants member. He has been with the American Airlines Flight Attendants union in difficult and contentious times, including through Covid. This perspective has given Tschäff unique insights into the burgeoning labor movement we are experiencing today. 

Transcript
Steven Grumbine:

All right, this is Steve with Macro N Cheese.

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Folks, it's been a few episodes now

that we have been really, I don't know,

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hyper focusing on the crossover between

movement building and understanding the

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role of labor in that movement building.

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Because many of you guys out

there are addicted to ledgers.

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You guys love tracing the treasury this,

the fed that, you wanna know about M1.

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You wanna know about all these wonky,

uh, monetary things when in reality,

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part of the value of our MMT work

is that it's supposed to enable real

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actual change by each one to each

one, each one reach one, and you got

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to have power to do these things.

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Stephanie Kelton famously says,

we just got to source the vote.

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And I feel that that is somewhat naive in

this system in terms of sourcing a vote

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in a captured oligarch driven system.

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And we see evidence upon evidence

upon evidence upon evidence that we

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don't have agency within this system.

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So, in all my talks with labor leaders

and folks, they recognize this.

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It's not even controversial.

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They recognize that in order for us to

move forward, we need a strong labor.

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And, you know, going back to 1978,

there was a great article and

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I'll let my guest talk about this

some, but back then, UAW had 1.

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5 million, million union members

capable of taking direct action.

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Today, that number is

somewhere around 300, 000.

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We've talked to David Van Deusen who

talks about his revolutionary insurgent

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style of class struggle unions.

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We've talked with Joe Burns about

class struggle unionism and the need

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to go beyond the corporate union.

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We have talked to Sara Nelson who

says that there's no such thing as

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an illegal strike, there's only a

successful or unsuccessful strike.

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And at the end of the day, each

of these things center around an

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injury to one is an injury to all.

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And that concept of unity and solidarity.

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But lo and behold, when we try to explain

this to many of our friends in the MMT

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community, many of the friends that we

work with, they're perfectly content

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with just throwing an I voted sticker

on their forehead and bouncing around

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as if they've solved world hunger.

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They've got a green new

deal coming any minute now.

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They have Medicare for All.

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Oh, if it weren't for this.

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Oh, if it weren't for that.

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And nevermind the track record and

the long history of not getting

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what we want, not getting anything.

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In fact, getting kicked in the

teeth through genocides and other

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such things, all being told it's

in the name of saving democracy.

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Well, I'm focused heavily on bringing

a light to shine on the labor movement.

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And while the labor movement in and of

itself is not all that we need, it is as

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good a kindling, it's as good a starting

point as anything else that we have.

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Because the political

parties, they're captured.

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The political parties are private

interests being met for oligarchy.

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They're not there to serve we the people.

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And so until we overcome that, until

we find a path forward, all the

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MMT conversations we have amount

to a lot of navel gazing, sadly.

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I mean, it's a radicalizing tool.

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It's an opportunity for us to

show people you could have this,

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but instead you have austerity.

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We could do great things, but

instead we're funding genocide.

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You could have healthcare and a

job guarantee, but instead we've

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got finger wagging and talking

about making bad decisions.

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The capitalist world that we live in has

no countermeasure right now without labor.

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And so with that, labor is

struggling mightily too.

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Labor is dealing with people who are built

with rugged individualism and they're

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tired and they're not used to seeing wins.

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So I've asked my friend, Tschaff Reisberg,

who has put me in touch, quite frankly,

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with David Van Deusen, with Sara Nelson,

with Joe Burns, and I've asked him to

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come on and talk to me, not only about

the state of labor, because the last

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time we had Tschaff on, we kind of talked

about the state of labor, but we're

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going to talk a little bit about the

history of labor and some of the really

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key moments that have caused us to not

gain progress , and the little glimmers

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of hope that we have trickled in through

horrific news, that we see on the daily

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basis that just wears our soul away.

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So without further ado, let me bring on my

guest, Tschaff Reisberg, the secretary of

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the Charlotte Metrolina Labor Council and

member of the association of professional

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flight attendants and friend of mine.

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Welcome to the show, sir.

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Tschaff Reisberg: Hello my friend.

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Thank you for having me on.

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Steven Grumbine: Yeah.

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Um, you know, pretty gloomy intro, but I

mean, I, was waiting for my lie detector

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to go off and it told me I was not lying.

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It told me that I was simpatico

with my own core beliefs.

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Tell me what's up with labor, bro.

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Tschaff Reisberg: My heart was racing

actually when I was listening to you

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make that monologue because to keep

that honesty going we are in a very

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scary moment in our history right now.

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It could easily get a lot worse than it

is, or we could start making progress.

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And there's signs of both

happening at the same time I'd say.

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Steven Grumbine: You were very kind in

sending me an article about a former UAW

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president who basically recognized in

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Let's just keep it real.

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Let's keep it a hundred here.

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Right.

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It was before Ronald Reagan, sold out

labor with the air traffic controllers.

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So this was on Jimmy Carter's watch.

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But in 1978, the head of UAW resigned

from a larger body of labor in the

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name of capitalism basically playing

completely unfair and not being

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willing to place labor on even footing.

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Talk to me about this particular letter.

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I think it's really important.

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Tschaff Reisberg: Yeah, I'm kind

of surprised that I discovered this

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and it wasn't more talked about.

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The president of the UAW,

his name was Douglas Fraser.

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In 78, He wrote his resignation

letter and he made it an open letter

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about why he's leaving this group.

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And he said, there's this group of the

head of big unions and big business,

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they'd meet and they try to find any

common ground on the political front

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and see what they can achieve together.

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And he said that, uh, the old terms of

this, this truce, and this is what it was.

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It was, there was a unwritten truce

between labor and capital that labor would

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not try to challenge capitalism itself.

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It wouldn't try to challenge the

capitalists' control of foreign policy.

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It wouldn't try to challenge capital's

control of domestic investment.

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And in exchange for this, the unions

would get a right to exist and a

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right to share in the prosperity

that comes with productivity

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gains and technology advancement.

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that truce was starting to break down.

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The capitalists saying, this is

not advantageous to us anymore.

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And we're going to go back into a hot war.

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And Douglas Fraser specifically named

three things that - or four things

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that he was trying to advance or

labor itself was trying to advance.

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They wanted national health insurance.

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They wanted a minimum wage

that was, you know, dignified.

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They wanted social security enhancements

and they wanted tax law to confiscate the

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wealth of the very wealthy individuals.

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And they were making zero

progress on this whatsoever.

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And in fact, corporations,

were going to start challenging

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unions' right to exist altogether.

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And so he resigned just stating this

is our scenario right now, we're at

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an impasse and, there's no point of

coming to these meetings anymore.

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And we know from history now that he

was spot on on everything he said.

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It was just a bloodbath

for labor ever since then.

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We saw this line of

wages and productivity.

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They were virtually identical between

the end of World War 2 and the end

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of the late seventies, and then they

started to diverge and wealth inequality

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in this country got worse and worse.

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The middle class kept having the

screws turned in them ever since.

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And we've never made progress

in any of those big issues

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that labor wanted to advance.

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Steven Grumbine: It's funny because in

72, obviously Richard Nixon removed us

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from the Bretton Woods accord, which

functionally was a world standard, a

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dollar standard for the world, but based

on a gold convertibility of the dollar.

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And you can see clearly that that

understanding the tethering of that fiat

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currency to a, you know, an external

constraint, such as a peg to a metal had

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a lot of, things that we didn't consider,

or maybe they knew and kept to themselves.

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But clearly the working

class didn't understand.

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Clearly the unions didn't understand.

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Clearly the voters didn't understand.

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But big business clearly did understand.

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The entirety of the movement of

capitalists understood because they

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began to gain wealth at a level

that - and it continues, right?

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We're talking about the hockey stick

of wealth inequality beginning.

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You know, I guess it took a few years,

like four or five years, but under Carter

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and then on steroids under Reagan, we saw

wealth inequality go through the roof.

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We, the people, never were able to,

vocalize with conviction the things that

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Fraser brought up in his resignation.

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The four things that he was

seeking are things that we

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all should have been seeking.

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We all should have known, Hey, gosh,

they took away the peg to gold.

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Now we can afford these things.

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We can do it without any of the, or we

could have done it before anyway, but

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that signaled a real shift in everything.

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It didn't have to be bad.

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Right.

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Obviously, you know, as MMTers, we know

that the lens of MMT is apolitical.

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It only is weaponized once you

overlay a value system on it.

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A socialist is going to lay a

very different value system.

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A unionist may lay a very different

value system over that MMT lens.

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And a capitalist and a warmonger and

a fascist are clearly going to place a

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different value system over that MMT lens.

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As you look back at the gains or the

loss of gains, if you will, of the labor

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movement, what do you think is the net

effect of that shift to the free-floating

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fiat currency that was no longer

convertible or pegged to a commodity?

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If you have an MMT standpoint, you

understand that only a floating

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fiat non-convertible currency is

compatible with full employment.

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Tschaff Reisberg: It's good that we

gave up on that promise because

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that promise was imposing unnecessary

austerity on the population.

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And, uh, we could definitely do without

that, but here's the thing, like

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unions have been in a reflective state

because they understand that if they

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keep on doing business as the status

quo, uh, we're not going to have a

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labor movement left in this country.

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Like we see the union density

decreasing year after year.

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It's flat now.

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At least we stopped the hemorrhaging.

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And, uh, what happens next is, uh,

it's very exciting to find that out.

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But we had this understanding that,

and, and left run unions, by the way,

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they understood this from the start.

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Like you read some old union

charters and you'll see that they

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would be considered like woke today.

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So they were just all for

equality among workers.

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We're not going to discriminate each

other based on our race, our religion,

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our sexual preference, where we're born.

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Like, if you're a worker, we're going

to have your back and vice versa.

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We're on the same team.

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That was, that was the mentality.

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And because of this peace agreement

with capital, all these people that

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had a critique of capitalism that

says the system wants to divide us.

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The capitalists would be happy

to divide and conquer us.

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They were purged from the unions.

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And I kind of understand that

decision because you don't want to

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fight a war you're going to lose.

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But, it's taken us 50 years since

Douglas Fraser resigned to understand

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that capitalism is not for us.

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It has never been for us.

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And to, come to that realization,

it's very much like MMT.

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I have Joe Burns to thank for that.

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Joe Burns has released a book

called Class Struggle Unionism.

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And it was just, it was the

right book at the right time.

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All these people are like, man,

what we're doing today is weak tea.

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We need something more powerful or

you're going to have to change our

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status quo because we are going to lose.

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And so one thing that those, old lefty

unions never understood was money.

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And I think the labor movement's gotten

so much better when it comes to being

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anti racist and, all the other things

that they want to divide us over, but we

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have never wrapped our minds around money.

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And I think those wall street

guys that are happy to just burn

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the planet to make a profit.

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Uh, they probably, I'd say most of

them do have a general understanding.

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You'll see, there's always money if

you want to fund a war, but if it's

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to fund healthcare, we're broke.

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Steven Grumbine: So what do

you think it would take to

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get labor to understand money?

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I mean, do you think that there is an

appetite for this sort of awakening,

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or do you think that they're just

too bogged down with life as it is?

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And, and just maybe even a tad

bit of that rugged individualism.

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I mean, cause everywhere I look,

I see people, whether they're just

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ignorant or whether they're true

believers, but they're just, they

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fancy themselves capitalists now.

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I can see them hiding the

answers on their test paper, not

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working to help others succeed.

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All in the name of getting the, uh,

valedictorian as opposed to, you

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know, making sure everybody rises.

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So what are your thoughts?

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What do you think prevents that?

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Tschaff Reisberg: Um, that is the

biggest question I've got personally.

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I don't know.

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I've got a way of selling

it to union members.

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And these, these are ones that

are already in the labor movement.

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Because you have the situation where

unemployment is used as a tactic of fear

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in the labor movement, we can't organize

new workplaces because the punishment

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of unemployment is just so severe.

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Everybody's got their mortgages.

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They've got student debt.

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They've got all this, uh, need

for a job and the pain of being

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unemployed is, substantial.

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So if you're trying to organize a

factory and the factory boss is saying

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that we're going to close our, our

factory, if you guys unionize, that's

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a powerful weapon against organizing.

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And take the example of Starbucks workers.

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These are people that are not very

high up on the economic ladder and

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Starbucks says we're going to turn

off credit card tipping if you

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try to organize your workplace.

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And once they started that tactic,

like workplace organizing right

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there just dropped substantially.

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And then on the more distant

horizon, you just have what

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happens if you're in a bad economy.

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There's this kind of idea where

we are at a state where things

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will be like this indefinitely.

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We don't have this anxiety that the

current situation might not last.

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It could very well get worse.

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In all these situations, a job

guarantee would be revolutionary.

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Because once people are not afraid

to unionize once that they've got

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like a decent income option for them,

and they can turn off the credit

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card tipping and everybody will

just go work for the job guarantee.

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So you're setting the floor of how

bad life can be with this thing.

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So union members just

very naturally understand.

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Oh my God, that'd be great if we

had the job guarantee, like compared

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to what we're doing now, like in

Charlotte, we've got a solidarity fund.

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If you lose your job because you're

trying to organize, uh, and by the

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way, this is against the law, but

it still happens, uh, we'll try to

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basically do a GoFundMe for you.

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And, try to take that fear away that

the capitalist class will put on you.

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But a job guarantee that could actually

be the thing that will snowball this into

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actually a much more unionized country.

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And if labor has more of a voice, uh, then

things will start to change a lot quicker.

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Steven Grumbine: You know, I go back to

my friend, Clara Mattei, you've probably

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read her book, The Capital Order.

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And she details in great, excruciating

precision about how economists developed

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austerity as a reaction, uh, an

overreaction, a massive overreaction,

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to what they saw in 1917 with the

Bolshevik revolution and the backlash

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against labor, because labor saw that

it didn't have to be this way and labor

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started thinking different thoughts.

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But, lo and behold, what has been

exposed in that moment though, and it

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probably should have been exposed even

before that going back to the start of

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the nation, especially times around the

Mexican American war, where you could see

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capitalists withholding grain from the

people in the community and just letting

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it sit in a barn while they starved.

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We know capital wants control over labor.

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We know that they want us pliable,

malleable, desperate so that we'll

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take whatever is given our way.

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And when they don't, they offshore

and they outsource and they do

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all sorts of other things to

ensure that labor is in precarity.

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The idea of a job guarantee literally

takes away some of, not all, because

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the job guarantee is the base wage and

most of these wages are not minimum

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wage jobs, you know, they're above what

would be deemed a living wage even.

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So it's not a one for one.

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I want to be crystal clear for folks,

but with that in mind, though, that is

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literally giving away the power of the

capital order and the capital class

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to withhold or hold over the head of

labor, the sack, the power of the sack,

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one of the, you know, she broke out

three different forms of austerity.

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There was the, uh, power of the sack,

there was the fiscal austerity, and then

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there was, you know, monetary policy, the

interest rates, and ultimately by using

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the power of layoffs and firing people.

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That has always been the most

coercive force to keep people in line

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and pliable and quiet and doing as

they're ordered, sir, kind of thing.

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Why do you think we would be able to

bring a job guarantee to the table

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and have it make it through given the

capture of our institutions in this

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country by the capital order as it stands?

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I'm interested because obviously as

an MMTer the job guarantee is core MMT.

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It's a very, very important thing.

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And as labor, to be able to hear them

understand, Hey, you know, if you go on

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strike, we got a job guarantee waiting

for you, you know, don't be afraid.

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Right?

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Tschaff Reisberg: I love that.

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Steven Grumbine: So here you go,

help me understand how this, like,

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obviously I understand it, but the

feasibility of being able to get it

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through, we have no agency short of

things that are not the norm, short of

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the struggle, short of these tactics.

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Tschaff Reisberg: Oh, I

can't wait to answer this.

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This is such an exciting

question you asked.

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Okay.

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Steven Grumbine: Yeah.

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Go for it, man.

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Tschaff Reisberg: All right.

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So we know like even historically

speaking, our political system

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is, it's like gridlocked.

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We are not able to make

any changes for the better.

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Our fights, the fights my union takes on

are ones to just maintain what we've got.

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And, uh, this also touches on

your earlier question, you know,

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how do we get people to see the

bigger picture, including money?

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Let's say your podcast, you know, I

don't hear on NPR, I don't hear on

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Fox or CNN, any mainstream station,

anybody talking about the job guarantee.

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So part of that is just

getting the truth out there.

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And that is a service

that you are providing.

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And I'm kind of amazed that

like the capitalists even

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let you put this out there.

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Because I always thought like pirate radio

stations were really cool in college.

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And, this is like, you don't

even have to be a pirate.

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You can do this and not

get arrested for now.

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So, uh, I'm, I'm against single bullet

solutions, but that is part of it.

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What you are doing is a

valuable service for humanity.

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That's why I support this podcast.

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I wish everybody else would too,

because it is a really a quality

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product you're putting out there that

is useful for the people that are

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trying to make the world a better place.

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Um, so second of all, there's a lot

of people that you can talk to them

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until your, your voice is hoarse

and it won't really change them.

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And what I'm seeing, uh, where I work,

which is at American Airlines as a flight

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attendant, most of the flight attendants

were pretty much tuned out to the labor

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movement, to what their union's doing.

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Like, they just pay their dues.

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They hope they get a decent

wage and a decent contract.

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And somebody will have their

backs if they're in trouble.

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But they, they didn't understand like

where the labor movement actually

352

:

fits in, in the bigger picture.

353

:

What's changing that is when we start

doing transparent negotiations and we

354

:

see what our company actually thinks

about us and how they actually value

355

:

us, because we'll put our proposals

out on the webpage, and it's really

356

:

insulting what they're offering us.

357

:

And then when we actually show up to

the pickets , now you start seeing

358

:

flight attendants start connecting dots.

359

:

And it used to be like, going back

20 years ago, uh, you couldn't

360

:

say things like "fuck capitalism"

or "down with corporate greed."

361

:

That has changed and seeing my coworkers

march and say "down with corporate

362

:

greed" together was so cool to see.

363

:

That is actually progress.

364

:

So part of it is actually the fight.

365

:

And this is where Joe Burns comes

out with another just absolutely

366

:

brilliant observation, which is

that showing people is a lot more

367

:

effective than talking to people.

368

:

And so his idea was we

should revive the strike.

369

:

Each one of these strikes

is like a little revolution.

370

:

You show yourself that you've actually

got power, that your opinion matters,

371

:

that they're trying to manipulate your

opinion because your opinion matters.

372

:

And especially when you win, now

you got a little taste of your own

373

:

power and you want more of that.

374

:

So part of that is you need

to have a fighting union.

375

:

And so that's why I've directed

a lot of my attention, uh, try to

376

:

change our union from a business

union that just tries to cooperate

377

:

with management to a fighting union.

378

:

And there's another union

that's, uh, been doing this.

379

:

UAW, where UAWW, which is this,

uh, democratic caucus responsible

380

:

for shaking up their own union

to make it more democratic.

381

:

And they were responsible for getting

Sean Fain, their current president.

382

:

And their current president had

a mandate to organize the South,

383

:

which is something that labor

unions have been very wary to do.

384

:

They thought it was just a lost

cause, that the workers are just too

385

:

brainwashed to ever go for a union.

386

:

You're just gonna be wasting your time

and money trying to organize the South.

387

:

And then they just won huge in Volkswagen.

388

:

And then they just, uh, more

recently they won at Daimler here

389

:

in North Carolina, where I live.

390

:

They just got a great

contract, major gains.

391

:

And, they're doing Mercedes now.

392

:

And that's looking pretty optimistic.

393

:

Before that they did the big three

strike and came up with huge gains.

394

:

The actors and the writers

did their strikes and they all

395

:

came out ahead in those fights.

396

:

So we're seeing a transformation

of the character of unions.

397

:

They have to be more democratic.

398

:

They have to actually share like a

critique of capitalism, and to be

399

:

democratic and actually like have

that democracy mean something means

400

:

that the membership actually has to

stay informed about what's the nature

401

:

of our, of our world we live in.

402

:

And so education has to

be a huge part of that.

403

:

Steven Grumbine: You know, in

talking with Joe previously, one of

404

:

the things that really was, I mean,

he, he didn't really hold back.

405

:

Was that a lot of union leaders had

really grown quite comfortable with

406

:

their five star dinners and their golf

course trips with the business leaders

407

:

and their cushy, you know, offices in

DC, as opposed to actually being with

408

:

the workers they supposedly represented.

409

:

And I think that that snapshot, that

vision, if you will, of a corporate union

410

:

and a corporate union leader lapping

up the benefits while simultaneously

411

:

selling out their constituency

just really, holds a lot of people

412

:

locked into that paradigm and, and

they don't see the value of unions.

413

:

I'm curious, given that, you know,

so much of this is predicated

414

:

on unions changing and shifting.

415

:

And you know, I see, you know, Sean Fain

and some others working to line up their

416

:

contracts to enable the potential even,

even the mere threat of a general strike.

417

:

And yet there's Sean Fain right

away, before it even had to be

418

:

done, endorsing Genocide Joe Biden.

419

:

Just to, you know, show that, you know,

people that are out there looking and

420

:

wondering, you know, where these folks

are going, it's it's hard to put trust

421

:

in that when you didn't have trust in the

guy to begin with who has shown himself

422

:

to be a capitalist through and through.

423

:

How do you convince people that leadership

of the unions is really fighting for them?

424

:

Tschaff Reisberg: Part of business

unionism was you're gonna try

425

:

to cooperate with management.

426

:

Intuitively it makes sense to us,

like, we want our companies to

427

:

survive, we depend on our companies

making profit to put food on our

428

:

table and we value our job security.

429

:

So we don't want to be

adversarial with management.

430

:

But that is a test we've

done so many times.

431

:

And unfortunately it's

not our, our choice.

432

:

Like capital is going to take

as much from us as we can.

433

:

And we have to fight

to defend what we got.

434

:

We have to fight to make any gains

and it's going to be a fight.

435

:

There's no cooperation.

436

:

This is Douglas Fraser's

resignation letter.

437

:

You will not find common

ground with these guys.

438

:

You guys have nothing in common.

439

:

So unfortunately it just

has to be adversarial.

440

:

And, I think the last 50 years

of unionism bares that truth.

441

:

But there's also a necessary for

every union member when speaking

442

:

to another union member to bend

over backwards to be honest.

443

:

I'm talking about an honesty that you only

see in like maybe some parts of science

444

:

and even there they struggle with it.

445

:

But if you're going to make an

analysis and try to tell that to

446

:

somebody, you have to tell that

person you're talking to every reason

447

:

you have to doubt your analysis.

448

:

You have to say why, what facts shed

light on that analysis being wrong.

449

:

You have to tell exactly how you came to

your, your thinking so that they can be in

450

:

a position to make an educated decision.

451

:

And, much of what unions do is

when they're getting started is

452

:

like, uh, it's like salesmanship.

453

:

And this is a part that I struggle with

personally, because I don't like sales.

454

:

I don't think that's,

it feels manipulative.

455

:

It's like when you go to a car dealership

and they're going to tell you all the

456

:

great stuff about the car that you want

to, that they want you ,to purchase.

457

:

They don't tell you the bad stuff.

458

:

And so they say, Oh yeah, you need to

just, uh, you need a, union that will

459

:

fight for better wages, a pension,

better security and all this stuff.

460

:

And everybody's like,

yeah, that sounds great.

461

:

I'm for that.

462

:

But, that will get you a business union.

463

:

You also need a union to

fight in the class war.

464

:

And when you're telling that to

people, when they're not ready to

465

:

hear it, you sound like a crazy lefty.

466

:

And I can say it here on this

podcast and everybody's like, yeah,

467

:

sure, that makes perfect sense.

468

:

But when you're, you're reaching an

audience that isn't as far down the

469

:

path of, uh, whatever path this is of

self empowerment, of self determination,

470

:

it just sounds like this is a far left

plot and, uh, you're going to lose them.

471

:

You're not going to get

them to sign that card.

472

:

In fact, they're going to

be hostile to you perhaps.

473

:

So what's happening more often

than not is when unions have this

474

:

opportunity to structure themselves to

be democratic and to set their goals

475

:

to be fights that you're picking that

will lead to bigger wins in the future.

476

:

Because that's, really the important

thing is when you don't have enough power,

477

:

you have to be strategic about where

you're going to deploy your resources.

478

:

So whatever your, your fight is, part

of your analysis of whether you should

479

:

take it on or not should be, does this

lead to greater power in the future?

480

:

Can we fight bigger fights in the future?

481

:

Or is, or is this the hamster wheel?

482

:

And so you create these unions

that basically are hamster wheels.

483

:

You're going to negotiate a contract.

484

:

You're going to enforce the contract.

485

:

You're going to fight all the

bullshit the company is going to

486

:

do in between the contract fights.

487

:

And that's not ever going

to lead to more power.

488

:

It's just going to be spinning your

wheels to hold on to what you got.

489

:

And that is because you missed

that opportunity at the start to

490

:

create a class struggle union.

491

:

So now it's a big fight to change

what your leaders do in your union.

492

:

And that's, it's always

this rank and file fight.

493

:

It's winnable, but it's slow.

494

:

It's time consuming.

495

:

But I think younger generations are just

way more open to it than older ones.

496

:

So it's promising.

497

:

Steven Grumbine: You know, I'm

watching the encampments across all

498

:

the universities, across America.

499

:

And I'm seeing something that

I haven't seen in my lifetime.

500

:

Closest thing I've seen to this might

have been as we got tired of the

501

:

Iraq war, seeing all the protests

around, but these are longer standing.

502

:

This reminds me very similar

of Occupy Wall Street.

503

:

It has some of those kind of overtones.

504

:

But from people that are a

little older than me are telling

505

:

me it reminds them of Vietnam.

506

:

And I watch this and I say, okay, how

can unions tap into this or is that

507

:

taboo because this right here is energy.

508

:

It's power, it's actions, people

demanding, it's people saying divest

509

:

from this evil thing that you're doing.

510

:

And, you know, BDS is completely

founded in the righteous end of an

511

:

apartheid, you know, ethno fascist state.

512

:

And I think to myself, how might a

union be able to leverage this tactic?

513

:

Is there a way to build solidarity

with them and create even more power?

514

:

Or is this one of those things like in

the movie Braveheart where the nobles

515

:

saw William Wallace trying to, uh, do

all this stuff and they kind of quietly

516

:

let him get taken away by the Crown.

517

:

I mean, like the selling out of labor.

518

:

There seems like this is an obvious

opportunity for class struggle,

519

:

even though let's be fair, some of

these folks were probably born on

520

:

the right side of the silver spoon.

521

:

It's still incredibly empowering

to see people, I mean, they're

522

:

putting their life on the line.

523

:

These kids are getting beaten up.

524

:

These teachers are getting

knocked to the ground.

525

:

And I mean, just crushed by a brown

shirt rising in these, these fascist

526

:

pigs, these cops that are not in any way,

shape or form protecting and serving.

527

:

They're literally the antagonizer.

528

:

But they're showing what I consider to

be strength, courage, and conviction.

529

:

And they're not sitting there going, well,

I'm not going to do this because maybe

530

:

my job in the future would be, they're

saying this needs to be addressed now.

531

:

And I'm going to take it on now.

532

:

And I may not win, but I'd

rather die trying than allow

533

:

them to continue doing this.

534

:

Is there any opportunity for

unions to work with this?

535

:

Tschaff Reisberg: There is.

536

:

And by the way, those who are

putting their bodies on the line

537

:

like that to fight for somebody else.

538

:

I think that, first of all,

those are, those are my heroes.

539

:

Steven Grumbine: Amen.

540

:

Tschaff Reisberg: There is something

that's so beautiful about union culture

541

:

that this resonates with, which is

to be successful, our power is unity.

542

:

And so to be a really strong fighting

union, it's all about solidarity.

543

:

It's all about fighting

each other's battles.

544

:

And that's probably my favorite

part of union culture is

545

:

standing up for each other.

546

:

So, you know, when this was just

getting started, we were hoping the

547

:

AFL-CIO would put out a ceasefire

resolution, because it was really clear

548

:

to everybody who's watching that there's

just gross violations of human rights,

549

:

international law, even domestic law.

550

:

It was completely outside of the

bounds of any sort of acceptable

551

:

conduct by union standards.

552

:

However, where I live, It's, uh, it's

a purple state, but there's a lot of

553

:

fascist individuals in this state that

are for a lot of reasons, very much on the

554

:

side of Israel is, is in the right here.

555

:

And, this is their union too.

556

:

And so that calculation probably

was being made at the highest

557

:

levels of the labor movement.

558

:

And the AFL-CIO, they're saying, well,

we just don't want to uh, piss off the

559

:

right wingers by taking a stance on this.

560

:

And, uh, in Charlotte, we did something

that's A, a violation of our labor

561

:

council's charter, but also it's

unprecedented for our own history.

562

:

We are not allowed to take a resolution

on international affairs or even domestic

563

:

affairs that cover the whole nation.

564

:

But we're all so upset by what we're

seeing, like, we're just seeing

565

:

these atrocities just streamed

every single day to our phones.

566

:

Uh, there's just no denying that this

is going on and it's unacceptable.

567

:

And so, one of the members from a pretty

conservative union, Ironworker, came to

568

:

our Central Labor Council and he said,

I think we should call for immediate

569

:

ceasefire and return of all the hostages.

570

:

By the way, the hostages

are on both sides.

571

:

And, um, we discussed it and it was

really tense in that room because

572

:

this is, really uncharted waters.

573

:

And if we get punished, if, if the, uh,

national throws the axe on us, like we

574

:

could all lose our positions and have

our labor council taken over by them.

575

:

And after a discussion, we voted

and it was unanimous that we

576

:

needed an immediate ceasefire.

577

:

And that was new ground for us.

578

:

We'd never tested those waters before.

579

:

And now that we did, and we were

scared to, I was definitely scared,

580

:

but we felt it was right and we did it.

581

:

And we showed we're on the same

page when it comes to human rights.

582

:

And that has to be a core value

of how unions will ever be strong.

583

:

We all have to agree.

584

:

There's no lesser human

beings out there in the world.

585

:

We all are all full fledged human

beings, all equal to the same rights.

586

:

And if we don't all agree on

that, we don't have power.

587

:

Any disagreement on that

just weakens us all.

588

:

Injury to one is injury to all.

589

:

And the other thing that that

labor movement has that the

590

:

other movements don't have is the

ability to shut down production.

591

:

So we didn't cause a ceasefire

with this resolution.

592

:

But it does lay the groundwork for

more action like that, which could

593

:

lead to work stoppages because you

can protest all day long, until your

594

:

voice is hoarse and you're just

sick of walking back and forth.

595

:

But if you don't have a way to escalate

things, they'll probably ignore you.

596

:

So you, you always have to have in

your mind, how do we escalate things?

597

:

And that's what the labor movement shows.

598

:

That it has that most

movements don't have.

599

:

And the other thing that's really powerful

they have is they have the ability to

600

:

have an organization that's capable of

negotiating on behalf of the membership.

601

:

And so, that back and forth that you

do in negotiations, a lot of these

602

:

movements, have not achieved their goal

or even worse, they've seen their goals

603

:

demolished and gotten worse because

they don't have that institution that's

604

:

capable of A, escalating and B, partaking

in negotiations that are legitimate.

605

:

And so that's, I think, where

the labor movement has a lot of

606

:

untapped potential going forward.

607

:

Steven Grumbine: I want to ask you

something very specific, and I'm

608

:

going to probably butcher this, so

please read between the lines, do

609

:

whatever you need to do to answer this.

610

:

Okay.

611

:

But, you know, obviously one of the

hardest things that I've experienced as

612

:

an individual, not as a union, obviously,

but as an individual is that I've gone

613

:

from the right to the left and I have,

bypassed my leftward, you know, swing

614

:

here, my orbit has pulled further left

than people who were once to my left.

615

:

And, you know, as I continue

around that thing, I'm constantly

616

:

reminded that everybody doesn't

see themselves as labor, even.

617

:

Everybody doesn't see themselves

as a part of the working class.

618

:

Everybody doesn't view the

world through a class lens.

619

:

And so, therefore, you end up

with a very, very strange, uh,

620

:

I'll use the word proletariat.

621

:

You end up with a very strange group of

people who don't see their shared purpose.

622

:

And ultimately, you know, you've got

people that will kiss the boot of

623

:

capital and you've got people that

will side with capital and you have

624

:

people that will side with fascism and

side with the oppressors, if you will.

625

:

And it's not anything new to this country.

626

:

It's certainly not anything

new to this time period.

627

:

Throughout history there's always been

Royalists that sided with the Crown or

628

:

people that were counter-revolutionaries

to the people that rose up to take rights.

629

:

I'm curious, how do you create a

shared solidarity within a union

630

:

that has very, very disparate people?

631

:

That's a huge struggle.

632

:

Tschaff Reisberg: We gotta always

take people with where they are.

633

:

And I think my critique of the left is

they can be pretty dismissive of you

634

:

and pretty unwelcoming if you do not

share their politics in every regard.

635

:

And like you just said, and certainly

it's been my experience, I think the

636

:

vast majority of us don't come into

all this with a class analysis and

637

:

our politics over the decades have

been evolving and they're going to

638

:

continue to evolve and our children's

are going to be different than ours.

639

:

And if the left is the more tolerant

group, uh, they're really exclusive

640

:

about who can be part of their club.

641

:

And as a result, they don't have that

strength that comes from numbers.

642

:

And so part of what unions do is we

just have to take people with where they

643

:

are, um, and not beat them over the head

over everything that we disagree over.

644

:

But instead, just because of the

interconnectedness of struggles, uh,

645

:

you get them on something that they care

about, like, a better contract, right?

646

:

Let's, let's talk about

something I know a lot about.

647

:

We're in a contract fight right now.

648

:

It's been five years since American

Airlines coughed up a new contract.

649

:

So we're living on these wages that

haven't gone up in half a decade.

650

:

Uh, starting pay is $27,000 before taxes.

651

:

And we can't live like that.

652

:

That's, a poverty wage.

653

:

And the company's like, well,

we're just happy to keep

654

:

this going, uh, indefinitely.

655

:

And part of our problem is as unlike the

UAW, we fall under the Railway Labor Act.

656

:

And the Railway Labor Act says you

can only strike if the company

657

:

and you haven't, uh, and your

union, haven't come to a deal

658

:

after a 30 day cooling off period.

659

:

And the cooling off period can only be

granted by the National Mediation Board.

660

:

And the National Mediation Board

is this political organization that

661

:

is part of the federal government.

662

:

And in the past, the Federal

Mediation Board has always granted

663

:

these 30 day cooling off periods.

664

:

But, they stopped.

665

:

There's been like two in the last decade.

666

:

And so without a credible threat to

strike, the airline has no incentive to

667

:

cough up a better deal and any notion

that you're paid fairly, you're paid what

668

:

you're worth that, you know, if you're

a good employee, you'll be rewarded.

669

:

All these, these notions that were kind

of, sort of true, like in the past in

670

:

American history, they've just faded.

671

:

And even the best, very, very best pro

company employees you got, they hate

672

:

coming to work because nobody wants

to spend their time at work miserable.

673

:

And that's what this company has

done to even the very best flight

674

:

attendants that get all the awards.

675

:

And then you see, well, why

isn't the national mediation

676

:

board allowing us to strike?

677

:

Well, it's because corporations

control the national mediation board.

678

:

And they're like, well, all right, fine,

let's change the Railway Labor Act.

679

:

This thing's a hundred years old

and it's preventing us from getting

680

:

the same gains that they had at

UAW and SAG AFTRA, Writers Guild.

681

:

And, you realize to try to change

that means we don't have a single

682

:

party that represents labor.

683

:

We have two capitalist parties.

684

:

And these people that their

security came from their affiliation

685

:

with their political party.

686

:

It's very uncomfortable for them.

687

:

They thought that these guys had their

back and they just find out, Oh no,

688

:

we asked them for their help and they

ignored us or they went against us

689

:

or they they bad mouthed the union.

690

:

And just that experience,

changes their politics.

691

:

And so I find just pull them in

and get them to do something.

692

:

Get them to do something, and then we'll

find the connectedness to other stuff.

693

:

And yeah, let's offer an education.

694

:

Let's say if you are earning a paycheck by

trading your time, you are working class.

695

:

And if you're earning your money,

I wouldn't even say earning, if

696

:

you're getting your money because

you own financial assets, you're

697

:

part of the capitalist class.

698

:

So, these classes have things in common.

699

:

They're antagonistic.

700

:

You don't have to beat them

over the head with Marx, you can

701

:

help them connect a few dots.

702

:

And as long as they're

engaged, they'll be all right.

703

:

Put your faith in the members.

704

:

Steven Grumbine: What does it mean when

you say, and I think I know, but I think

705

:

this bears sussing out a little bit.

706

:

What does it mean to have

two capitalist parties?

707

:

What is that saying?

708

:

That they cater to the individuals

who own industry at the

709

:

exclusion of the working class?

710

:

Or is it more a matter of, they just

accept that this is the way it is and

711

:

write laws that further this ends.

712

:

I don't, I think I know what it

means, but I just want to hear

713

:

what your idea of that means.

714

:

Tschaff Reisberg: Well, capitalism itself

depends on the state defining property

715

:

rights, enforcing property rights.

716

:

What they do after all that, there

can be a conflict between what labor

717

:

wants and what capital owners want.

718

:

so these parties conflict

behind the scenes.

719

:

A lot of people have this naive belief

that if you vote, uh, your politician

720

:

is going to represent you and it

doesn't work like that whatsoever.

721

:

What's really happening behind the

scenes is different parties, different

722

:

groups of people, are trying to

push their lawmakers to make them

723

:

serve whatever their interests are.

724

:

So this is not an issue

now, I think it should be an

725

:

issue, but say bankruptcy law.

726

:

If your corporation goes under, how

you are treated as a class is different

727

:

depending on if you are an owner of

the company or if you're a worker.

728

:

And in most cases, uh, if you are an

owner, you get priority over whatever

729

:

assets are left in that company and

workers get the crumbs that are left over.

730

:

That's a political decision

that our government made.

731

:

And so when I say that the capitalists

have two classes, in example over

732

:

example they are going to serve

the interests of capital over those

733

:

who earn a paycheck for a living.

734

:

And that's, 99 percent

of America right there.

735

:

So, uh, I think it ties into another MMT

adjacent traveler, Jamie Galbraith, who

736

:

wrote a book called The Predator State.

737

:

And basically the thesis is because

labor and capital have nothing in

738

:

common, he didn't put it in those

terms, but this is my translation.

739

:

You're going to find you are on

the opposite sides of every issue.

740

:

And, uh, your politicians

are going to side with the

741

:

predators over ordinary people.

742

:

Most of the time.

743

:

Like they toss us enough that we don't

outright revolt immediately, but they

744

:

just turn the screws over and over.

745

:

Uh, so we're heading to a future

that just can't sustain this.

746

:

Steven Grumbine: I'm curious, you

know, as you were talking about the

747

:

current state of your own contracts,

I mean, obviously there's been a

748

:

lot of really, wild stuff going on.

749

:

We saw strike busting, uh, with

the railways based on obscure

750

:

laws of a hundred years ago.

751

:

And we've seen a host of other things

occurring that basically put the

752

:

kibosh on your ability to strike.

753

:

And I think you kind of mentioned

a little bit of that earlier.

754

:

I am curious.

755

:

What is the state of your particular

spaces ability to get a new contract?

756

:

What are you all looking at?

757

:

Tschaff Reisberg: Well, the old way of

doing things was you would do a picket and

758

:

even though the Railway Labor Act forces

us to take a strike vote, then a cooling

759

:

off period, then there's possibility

of presidential emergency board.

760

:

There's all these hoops we got to jump

through, but just the picket will freak

761

:

out the passengers and passengers will

start to buy tickets on other airlines.

762

:

Investors are going to start to flee.

763

:

And that alone was enough to get the

company serious about negotiating a deal.

764

:

And that stopped happening.

765

:

And now, we depend on Uncle Sam to

let us strike and they're saying,

766

:

Nope, we want you to negotiate more.

767

:

And, we are trying a new tactic, which

is to send a letter to National Mediation

768

:

Board from, from anybody in the House

of Representatives who will actually

769

:

represent us, to sign on to that letter.

770

:

And we just did that.

771

:

We got 184 signatures, I think.

772

:

This was yesterday or two days ago,

and we're sending that to National

773

:

Mediation Board because this is

ultimately a political organization.

774

:

So, I don't think Democrats at this

point are in a very strong position.

775

:

They can't look as anti labor at this

state of an election year, because

776

:

labor unions are very popular right now.

777

:

So, that's working to our advantage.

778

:

We're going to find out probably in

the next month or so, it's probably

779

:

somewhere, yeah, the next two or

three weeks, if we're going to be

780

:

allowed to strike or if we've got to

find another way to escalate things.

781

:

It's going to be very

interesting what happens.

782

:

Steven Grumbine: Well,

good luck with that.

783

:

Well, I tell you what,

we're coming up on our time.

784

:

Help me make this the best podcast ever.

785

:

Take us to what we're missing.

786

:

What are some of the things that we maybe

didn't cover that we should have covered?

787

:

What do you think our listeners

need to take away from this podcast?

788

:

Tschaff Reisberg: I think there's

two things that are really critical.

789

:

And they both, they're so critical

they show up in your, introductions.

790

:

The first is your old introduction

ends with, I want the truth.

791

:

And so I want everybody to not try to sell

their point of view on other people, but

792

:

instead try to be so incredibly honest.

793

:

And there's nobody easier

to fool than yourself.

794

:

And so there's a guy named

Richard Feynman, a physicist,

795

:

did all kinds of great work.

796

:

He wrote a paper called

Cargo Cult Science.

797

:

I suggest everybody give that a

read, to understand how we can be

798

:

more honest with each other, which

is a necessity for being strong.

799

:

And the other thing I want

everybody to remember is, um, This

800

:

is in your introduction again,

is I don't want to, how's it go?

801

:

Steven Grumbine: "...The

tranquilizing effect of

802

:

gradualism and incrementalism..."

803

:

Tschaff Reisberg: That's it.

804

:

So when you're picking your fights, what

you have to have in mind is does this

805

:

lead to something bigger in the future?

806

:

Because at this time, we are

fighting to maintain what we've got.

807

:

And if we stop fighting, we're gonna lose.

808

:

Where we wanna be is fighting

to actually make progress.

809

:

So when you're strategizing about

What fights are we going to fight?

810

:

The number one thing you should be

thinking about is how will this lead

811

:

to greater power to win in the future?

812

:

Steven Grumbine: Very, very good, Tschaff.

813

:

I really appreciate you taking

the time to explain this to me.

814

:

Uh, appreciate the back and forth.

815

:

Uh, these podcasts are so much better

when they can be an exchange of ideas and

816

:

really appreciate the amount of effort

you put into trying to bring a union's

817

:

perspective and a real one at that.

818

:

Like, we recognize what we may

want, but this is where we are.

819

:

And pumping air in the tires

is pretty daggone tough.

820

:

Uh, it's been a long time coming and

trying to get it reinvigorated and stuff.

821

:

It's a really large ice cold glass

of water to the face as you try to

822

:

wonder why things aren't happening.

823

:

And, uh, you realize there's

a lot of work to be done.

824

:

Tschaff Reisberg: There's a

lot of work and a lot of ways

825

:

people can make a difference.

826

:

That's the main thing is everybody

just try goodwill towards men and

827

:

have faith that we will all do

what's right, if enough of us.

828

:

What a shitty ending that is.

829

:

Have faith.

830

:

This is how Sean Fain did it, the UAW in

the South Have faith that if the members

831

:

are given good, accurate information, 99

percent of them will do the right thing.

832

:

Steven Grumbine: There you go.

833

:

All right, buddy.

834

:

With that, my name is Steve Grumbine.

835

:

I am the host of Macro N Cheese.

836

:

My guest, Tschaff Reisberg.

837

:

On behalf of Real Progressives

we thank you all for listening.

838

:

Please consider becoming a monthly

donor at Patreon, Real Progressives,

839

:

and also you can come to our

website, realprogressives dot org.

840

:

Go to donate.

841

:

And by all means, there's

no amount too small.

842

:

We are a 501 c3.

843

:

So your tax deductible

donations are mucho appreciated.

844

:

And with that, for my friend

Tschaff and I, we are out of here.

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Macro N Cheese
Comfort Food For Thought! #MMT
Macroeconomics has never been so ... delish! Macro and Cheese explores the progressive movement through the lens of Modern Monetary Theory, with hot and irreverent political takes, spotlights in activism, and the razor sharp musings of Real Progressives Founder and host Steve Grumbine. The cheese will flow as experts come in for a full, four course deep dive into the hot queso.

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Steven Grumbine

Steve is a lot more than just the host of Macro N Cheese, he's the founder and CEO of two nonprofits and the “less is more" project manager! He uses his extensive knowledge of project management, macroeconomics and history to help listeners gain a vision of what our future could look like.