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Episode 349

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Published on:

11th Oct 2025

Ep 349 - Cultural Syndromes of Capitalism with David Fields

**This week’s Macro ‘n Chill gathering should be a lively one. Whenever we dive into the topic of cultural hegemony, it sparks a thoughtful discussion. Join us on Tuesday, October 14, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Click here to register  

This is the 349th episode of our podcast. Just sayin’.

Steve’s guest is David Fields, talking about his recent article, The Cultural Syndromes of Capitalism. David explains the rise of far-right figures like Donald Trump is not a random accident but a direct outcome of the capitalist system, which creates deep-seated cultural syndrome that poison our minds and relationships, making fascism an attractive option for many when the system itself is in crisis. 

The three key cultural syndromes are: 

  • Gain Primacy Syndrome, designed to make us feel like failures: Capitalism constantly tells us to optimize ourselves and chase endless wealth. When we inevitably can't achieve this due to low wages and precarious jobs, it creates a deep sense of alienation and loss. Fascists then exploit this feeling, telling us to blame immigrants, people of color, or our neighbors instead of the system itself. 
  • Zero-Sum Rivalry Syndrome, pitting us against each other: The system is built on dog-eat-dog competition. This forces us into constant social comparison, potentially leading to self-hatred and mental health crises. When we feel we're losing this race, it's easy for fascist rhetoric to redirect our anger. 
  • Ownership Syndrome, making everything fake: We are taught to find meaning not in community or authenticity, but in the things we buy. This is designed to create a hollow, meaningless life. Fascism offers a false sense of genuine community and a return to a "better past" (hahaha) to fill this void. 

The conversation also touches on theological reflections and historical perspectives to further emphasize the pervasive cultural manipulation intrinsic to capitalism. Overall, the episode examines the ideological tools used to maintain economic subjugation. Liberals and Democrats are meant as a ‘friendly face’ of the same system, offering pittances of welfare while ensuring the exploitative oppressive structure remains intact. 

Link to the article discussed in this episode: https://utahvanguard.medium.com/the-cultural-syndromes-of-capitalism-e2765aa7df34 

David M. Fields is an economist and author whose research is grounded in critical, realistic and genetic structuralist ontology and epistemology, focusing on the complex interactions of foreign exchange and capital flows with economic growth, fiscal and monetary policy and distribution, with particular emphasis on the concept of endogenous money. 

Additionally, he investigates the political economy of regional development, along with examining patterns with respect to housing, social stratification and community planning. He is currently an economist at the Utah Department of Commerce and the author of a Medium post for the Utah Vanguard. 

@ProfDavidFields on X

Transcript
Steve Grumbine:

All right, folks, this is Steve with Macro N Cheese. Today's guest

Steve Grumbine:

is a returning guest, my buddy, David Fields. And David Fields is

Steve Grumbine:

more than a buddy. He's an academic and he's an author and

Steve Grumbine:

he's a really decent dude. And I'm going to go ahead and

Steve Grumbine:

read this bio here. His research is grounded in critical, realistic and

Steve Grumbine:

genetic structuralist ontology and epistemology, focusing on the complex interactions of foreign

Steve Grumbine:

exchange and capital flows with economic growth, fiscal and monetary policy and

Steve Grumbine:

distribution, with particular emphasis on the concept of endogenous money. Additionally, he

Steve Grumbine:

investigates political economy of regional development, along with the examining patterns which

Steve Grumbine:

with respect to housing, social stratification and community planning. He is currently

Steve Grumbine:

an economist at the Utah Department of Commerce and the author of

Steve Grumbine:

a Medium post for the Utah Vanguard, which is his publication he

Steve Grumbine:

does on Medium. And we're going to be discussing the cultural syndromes

Steve Grumbine:

of capitalism, given what a glorious Donald Trump moment we're having these

Steve Grumbine:

days where anybody that is left of center, in some cases left

Steve Grumbine:

of left, yours truly included, probably is not a favorite of Donald

Steve Grumbine:

Trump's. And his whole apparatus seems to have, you know, developed a

Steve Grumbine:

slight micro chubby over looking at lefties. And today we're going to

Steve Grumbine:

talk a little bit about capitalism and the cultural syndromes of capitalism.

Steve Grumbine:

This obviously drew me in big time because a lot of what

Steve Grumbine:

we're dealing with these days is the outcomes of capitalism. We're dealing

Steve Grumbine:

with the fraudulent democracy, the fraudulent planned obsolescence, the fraudulent rentier economy,

Steve Grumbine:

the fraudulent investor grade retrograde scumbag capitalist economy that impacts so many

Steve Grumbine:

of our lives. And for me, this article really, really started a

Steve Grumbine:

bunch of thoughts in my head. So I quickly asked David to

Steve Grumbine:

join me and he was kind enough to agree to do so.

Steve Grumbine:

So, well, let me bring on my guest, David Fields. Welcome to

Steve Grumbine:

the show, sir.

David Fields:

Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me. A pleasure to be here.

Steve Grumbine:

Absolutely. Again, I respect the hell out of anyone that's willing to

Steve Grumbine:

speak out on these issues and write about these issues, especially those

Steve Grumbine:

that aren't timid and lecturing people on tone and rudeness, things like

Steve Grumbine:

that, because right now we're in a weird timeline, right? We are

Steve Grumbine:

in a timeline where the most decent people are being beaten up

Steve Grumbine:

by ICE [Immigration and Customs Enforcement], the most decent people are being

Steve Grumbine:

in trouble for speaking truth. And all the while we're watching what

Steve Grumbine:

looks like at the most corrupt, most radical, most fascist elements driving

Steve Grumbine:

us into a direction that is just absolutely terrifying. Raising kids in

Steve Grumbine:

this environment is scary business. The outcomes, the outflows, if you will,

Steve Grumbine:

of capitalism, the ancillary elements that come as a result of capitalism,

Steve Grumbine:

are being felt by a lot of us right now, and there

Steve Grumbine:

have never been more on display than they are right now. So

Steve Grumbine:

with that, tell us about your article, sir.

David Fields:

I was going to follow up with what you just said. It reminds me

David Fields:

of this infamous passage by Anne Frank when she was hiding in the attic. She

David Fields:

wrote in her memoirs that that outside folks are being disappeared off the streets

David Fields:

for no apparent reason, et cetera, et cetera. But the crux of the story

David Fields:

is that what she was describing is essentially happening right outside our window here,

David Fields:

which no one could think is fathomable, but is. And that's incredibly frightening.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It absolutely is. I mean, the idea of the basic

Steve Grumbine:

things you would have learned in college or even high school are being turned

Steve Grumbine:

into... I don't even know what you call it. Like, up is down, down

Steve Grumbine:

is up, left is right, right is left kind of insanity. I envisioned the

Steve Grumbine:

guy in 1984, the party official that worked with Winston. [Yeah] "Winston, how many

Steve Grumbine:

fingers am I holding up?" And he's like, "four."

David Fields:

Four.

Steve Grumbine:

"You're holding up four?" And he goes, "no, Winston."

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

"How many fingers am I holding?" "Four. I don't know what you want me to tell you. I see four. Four.

Steve Grumbine:

It must be four." And he's like, "no, Winston, the number of fingers depends on what the Party tells you."

David Fields:

Yep.

Steve Grumbine:

If I say there are three, there are three. If I say there are

Steve Grumbine:

10, there are 10 kind of thing. And it's like, I see people that

Steve Grumbine:

are willing to go along with that, and I say to myself, you are

Steve Grumbine:

the most terrifying person on the planet. The most terrifying person on the planet.

David Fields:

Yeah. And what I've been trying to argue with my writings

David Fields:

lately is that what we're facing is not an aberration. It's

David Fields:

not an outlier, so to speak. It's deeply ingrained in this

David Fields:

system that we are heavily embedded in, which is capitalism, which

David Fields:

suffers from psychosocial pathologies which I've come to the conclusion are

David Fields:

the Gain Primacy Syndrome, more a cultural syndrome, Zero-Sum Rivalry Syndrome,

David Fields:

and the Ownership Syndrome. And what I mean by these concepts

David Fields:

is in the first instance, this constant need for perpetual self

David Fields:

optimization to gain as much wealth as you can at whatever

David Fields:

social costs, constitutes a culture of narcissism, you know, the entrepreneurial

David Fields:

self, if you will. And this syndrome facilitates a deep sense

David Fields:

of estrangement, which then leads to alienation for the working class

David Fields:

specifically because they can't rely on the utmost means of security,

David Fields:

unlike the leisure class, reaches a pinnacle of loss. And that

David Fields:

loss is a space of which fascist tendencies to save capitalism

David Fields:

from itself can easily latch on and exploit to use said

David Fields:

class to support far-right forces which are inherently against their interests.

David Fields:

Blame the migrant, blame the person of color, blame the foreigners,

David Fields:

et cetera, et cetera, for problems which are inherently structural because

David Fields:

they haven't been able to attain that image of or that

David Fields:

presentation of the utmost success of which capitalism celebrates and represents.

David Fields:

And then there's this competitive strife, the zero sum rivalry I

David Fields:

talked about, where this constant comparison of another can lead to

David Fields:

self deprecation, psychic regress, mental destabilization, so contrary to what a

David Fields:

psychologist would say of this personal disgruntlement and unable to take

David Fields:

care of his or her emotions, is in fact a manifestation

David Fields:

of a system where cooperation is not the key essence of

David Fields:

the society in which we live in. It's dog-eat-dog, Hobbesian brutishness.

David Fields:

And that Hobbesian brutishness translates into a constant social comparison of

David Fields:

rank. And if somebody can't reach that rank, they're demonized, they're

David Fields:

ostracized, they're considered less than dirt, and that translates into a

David Fields:

downward spiral. Another space of which fascist tendencies can exploit to

David Fields:

entrench its hegemony, saying that your deep sense of loss is

David Fields:

again that migrant, that foreigner, you know, that next door neighbor

David Fields:

who... you get the idea. And then there's this ownership syndrome

David Fields:

where celebration of humans is not centered on their authenticity for

David Fields:

who they are, how they treat others, etc. But conspicuous consumption

David Fields:

to fill a void of meaningless that the society celebrates and

David Fields:

reproduces in that conspicuous consumption, where we treat humans as things,

David Fields:

facilitates a fictitiousness inauthenticity where nothing seems real, nothing seems genuine,

David Fields:

nothing seems filled with emotion. And this is another space which

David Fields:

is not mutually exclusive from the two other spaces I talked

David Fields:

about, where again, fascist tendencies can latch on, exploit and use

David Fields:

to entrench itself and facilitate a hegemony, which provides an inauthentic

David Fields:

sense that well, here's the essence and here we're going to

David Fields:

save society or bring back society which has been lost in

David Fields:

the past and bring back something that's genuine, which we know

David Fields:

is not true, but that sense of loss is a means

David Fields:

to manufacture that and allows fascism to come to the surface

David Fields:

and essentially perpetuate capitalism, even though the person who is being

David Fields:

exploited to support that tendency doesn't realize that this is a

David Fields:

means, a far-right means to save capitalism from its own destruction.

Steve Grumbine:

In the article you talk extensive and I think this is really important for

Steve Grumbine:

folks. We will have the link to this in the show notes, but I

Steve Grumbine:

think it's really very interesting to see the grid that you put together, the

Steve Grumbine:

table that you put together, kind of breaking it down into capitalism's core principle,

Steve Grumbine:

the ideology behind it, the syndrome that it associates with, and then the social

Steve Grumbine:

manifestation. I think that is really interesting. I mean, you go into the profit

Steve Grumbine:

motive and you say utility maximization, profit maximization, wealth as a goal in and

Steve Grumbine:

of itself. The syndrome, gain primacy syndrome, and the social manifestation, perpetual self optimization.

Steve Grumbine:

I mean, you just went through this, but the way that you laid it

Steve Grumbine:

out here, all anybody needs is a ruler or index card to block out

Steve Grumbine:

the other line and they can read left to right how this starts and

Steve Grumbine:

how it ends and how it shows itself. Definitely worth taking a look at.

Steve Grumbine:

You brought something else up there that I think is really important. And for

Steve Grumbine:

folks that listen to this podcast, you'll have heard me bring this up several

Steve Grumbine:

different times, but I feel like there's never been a better time than right

Steve Grumbine:

now to learn about [Italian anti-fascist] Antonio] Gramsci and cultural hegemony and understanding how hegemony works

Steve Grumbine:

and a crisis of hegemony that brings about these harsher, more fascistic tendencies during

Steve Grumbine:

that period. I mean, these are not permanent states. I don't believe you could

Steve Grumbine:

live perpetually in a fascist state without the contradictions rupturing to the point where

Steve Grumbine:

there would be mass violent. I don't think you could keep it for long.

Steve Grumbine:

It would have to be a tactic as opposed to a long term strategy.

Steve Grumbine:

But can you weigh in a little bit how cultural hegemony speaks to these

Steve Grumbine:

syndromes of capital?

David Fields:

Oh, for sure. And I'll connect it with Karl Polanyi, who developed the

David Fields:

concept of the double movement. First, I'll center my attention on culture. A

David Fields:

lot of folks like to poo poo culture, like, ah, culture, it's touchy

David Fields:

feely stuff and doesn't really explicate the concrete economic realities. And for a

David Fields:

long time I said, "yeah, maybe that's right, culture's too, you know, softy,

David Fields:

touchy." But then I started thinking more deeply and culture is actually very

David Fields:

important because it's a plane where the conflicts of capitalism are played out.

David Fields:

So it's not just on the shop floor, it's not just in the

David Fields:

streets. It's also fought on what constitutes meaning and essence. And to me,

David Fields:

that's what culture manifests is the meaning/essence. You know, what does everything mean

David Fields:

to this person? And how does it structure relationships with other folks? And

David Fields:

in that realm, what Gramsci was talking about with respect to culture hegemony

David Fields:

is, more culture and parallelism, if you will, which he discussed and developed,

David Fields:

is meaning in the sense that the system which the meaning supports facilitates

David Fields:

misrecognition, you know, a sense of distortion where the overall dominance of what

David Fields:

makes everything seem real to the person is not real, but it's made

David Fields:

to seem real. To think that this is just natural, like your relation

David Fields:

to other person as things, or the gain primacy, where it's perpetual optimization

David Fields:

through utility maximization, profit maximization, where everything is all about market competition. You

David Fields:

know, a pejorative term, social Darwinism, but makes sense. And private property is

David Fields:

some natural essence, natural force. The only way that these pillars can survive

David Fields:

is a meaning that supports it, is a meaning that emphasize that this

David Fields:

is just natural. It's always been like this.

David Fields:

It's... there's nothing you can do about it. And therefore if there's nothing

David Fields:

you can do about it, well, you treat it as eternal. So that's

David Fields:

the cultural imperialism or the cultural hegemony I'm talking about the meaning that

David Fields:

emphasizes entrenches these pillars. And if that meaning starts to be contested, like

David Fields:

I said before, the fascist tendency is there to save it from itself.

David Fields:

Now I bring in the concept of the double movement into this, famously

David Fields:

captured by Karl Polanyi's book, The Great Transformation. And the way I interpret the

David Fields:

double movement, there's economic plane where folks are trying to make sense of

David Fields:

their economic insecurities. They can go a path towards more social democracy or

David Fields:

socialism, or the other end, where you have charismatic cult of personalities like

David Fields:

what we have now, use that economic disgruntlement to push for more fascist

David Fields:

means to save the system from collapsing. But on a cultural plane, there's

David Fields:

a double movement as well. And that's a cultural contradiction or a cultural

David Fields:

contestation, if you will, where there's a way for culture to shift towards

David Fields:

a direction that contests, that radically tries to transform the dominant sense of

David Fields:

meaning, that treats everything as eternal. But then on the other side, there's

David Fields:

a counteracting force to prevent such cultural contestation with reinforced sense of meaning.

David Fields:

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. All that is just radical

David Fields:

dogmatic nonsense. We need to save our nation. We need to save our

David Fields:

society. And this is where the culture of otherness starts to play a

David Fields:

role which is meant to save the cultural hegemony, to ensure that the

David Fields:

system doesn't collapse or doesn't push towards those more progressive forces I talked

David Fields:

about before. So when we talk about cultural hegemony, we have to consider

David Fields:

the double movement that Karl Polanyi talks about again, not just on an

David Fields:

economic plane or the political plane, but on a cultural plane where forces

David Fields:

are going in different directions to try to make sense of the situation

David Fields:

that we're in. And history shows that prior to World War II or

David Fields:

even before World War I, but during that time period, economic crises were

David Fields:

reigning supreme. There was a lot of contestation of whether or not this

David Fields:

system called capitalism could sustain itself, and there were a lot of progressive

David Fields:

socialist movements, et cetera. But the only way fascism was able to gain

David Fields:

a foothold was, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to save our

David Fields:

society. We're going to make sure that we can go through this with

David Fields:

super nationalism, otherness, xenophobia, et cetera, et cetera, which is parading today. But

David Fields:

that's the point, because fascism is the underlying force, not just economic and

David Fields:

social and political, but cultural, to ensure that the system doesn't go towards

David Fields:

the direction that folks like you and I would see, which is more

David Fields:

social justice routes and more transformative routes that radically transform the system. So

David Fields:

those syndromes, like I talked about, are not prevailing and not treated as

David Fields:

eternal.

Steve Grumbine:

I want to read from your article here real quickly. It's

Steve Grumbine:

two quick paragraphs, but I think they're powerful and they play

Steve Grumbine:

right into what we were just talking about. You say, "On

Steve Grumbine:

the one hand, capitalism acts as a powerful driver for socialization,

Steve Grumbine:

propelling advancements that demonstrably improve collective power and interconnectedness for innovation

Steve Grumbine:

enables the pooling of resources, knowledge and effort on scales previously

Steve Grumbine:

unimaginable. Yet the collective advancement is fundamentally compromised by an economic

Steve Grumbine:

framework wherein the proceeds of labor are expropriated. This engenders a

Steve Grumbine:

pervasive sense of powerlessness and isolation. Laborers experience detachment from the

Steve Grumbine:

products of their efforts, exercising minimal control over the production process

Steve Grumbine:

or the ultimate disposition of their creations. This alienation extends beyond

Steve Grumbine:

the confines of the workplace, permeating social relations as workers are

Steve Grumbine:

increasingly perceived as cogs rather than integral members of a community.

Steve Grumbine:

By subjecting the substance of society to the laws of motion

Steve Grumbine:

of capitalist violence, the structural bifurcation provides for fertile ground for

Steve Grumbine:

the emergence of political and social cataclysms. Anime systematically transmutes human

Steve Grumbine:

creative power into a personal and social antagonistic force, a social

Steve Grumbine:

condition for fascism." And I'll continue with one last paragraph. "Fascism,

Steve Grumbine:

hence, rather than representing a radical departure or direct opposition to

Steve Grumbine:

the capitalist system, operates as a profound and often brutal mechanism

Steve Grumbine:

for capitalism's continued existence and perpetuation. This is achieved through the

Steve Grumbine:

deliberate cultivation of a false consciousness." We're now talking about hegemony

Steve Grumbine:

right here. This is the cultural hegemony right there. "Effectively blinding

Steve Grumbine:

the proletariat to the true roots and architects of their economic

Steve Grumbine:

and social subjugation. By diverting their attention and misdirecting their grievances,

Steve Grumbine:

right wing fanaticism ensures that the fundamental structures of capitalism remain

Steve Grumbine:

unchallenged and intact, often leveraging nationalistic fervor, scapegoating and the suppression

Steve Grumbine:

of dissent to maintain social order and economic stability for the

Steve Grumbine:

ruling class." Hello. If that isn't exactly what is going on

Steve Grumbine:

right now, I don't know what, I don't know what else

Steve Grumbine:

it is.

David Fields:

Exactly. No, that's it. That's it. There's no other way to describe it. And

David Fields:

that's exactly what's happening. So like I said, Trump is not an aberration. Trump

David Fields:

is a part and parcel product of the sick system that we have.

Steve Grumbine:

The people act like, you know, it's radical or extreme to identify this stuff and to speak on it.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

Which I find tragic, quite honestly, because you don't

Steve Grumbine:

even have to be a well researched scholar or

Steve Grumbine:

a some sort of radical extremist or whatever.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And at this point in time, let's just be crystal clear. [Yeah] we are

Steve Grumbine:

living in an extremist timeline. We are living in the most, excuse my French,

Steve Grumbine:

fucked-up timeline that I have ever experienced and I'm almost 60 years old.

David Fields:

Yeah, you're not wrong. We are living in the system where

David Fields:

what I wrote here exactly constitutes what's happening, which is these

David Fields:

right wing tendencies are getting a foothold, is encapsulating the minds

David Fields:

of everybody, pitting people against other people, facilitating interpersonal violence along

David Fields:

with structural violence. And yes, that's happening. But what gave rise

David Fields:

to this? And I emphasize, well, liberalism facilitates these forces. And

David Fields:

why? Because apologetic reformism can only go so far. Okay? Because

David Fields:

apologetic reformism, which is the essence of liberalism, is not meant

David Fields:

to facilitate social transformations where everybody and anybody, regardless of circumstance,

David Fields:

can reach their full human potential. Liberalism is a means to

David Fields:

say, "okay, okay, we'll provide some welfare state provisions and give

David Fields:

the appearance that the system works for everybody, but it doesn't."

David Fields:

And then you have Democrats saying, "how is this possible?" Easy.

David Fields:

When you have folks like Kamala Harris saying, "okay, let's calm

David Fields:

down, let's be reasonable," etc. etc. They have nobody except themselves

David Fields:

to blame for what's happening.

Steve Grumbine:

I think to myself, and I want to be crystal clear on this, right? Like,

Steve Grumbine:

if we had a visual on the board and we had a Venn diagram.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And we said, here is your liberation right here in this spot on the

Steve Grumbine:

Venn. We don't even have a Venn diagram yet. We have a universal set

Steve Grumbine:

at this moment. We haven't done any intersections or anything else. Right? Just here

Steve Grumbine:

is liberation. And you look and you see that liberals believe that they represent

Steve Grumbine:

liberation, but they are not in any way. They're capitalists that facilitate this very

Steve Grumbine:

thing. And what they do is they put out like a pittance for welfare

Steve Grumbine:

that allows the other side, which is not really an other side, it's just

Steve Grumbine:

their alter ego showing up saying, "hey, you lazy, no good pieces of shit,

Steve Grumbine:

how dare you milk off of my tax dollar. And you lazy, good for

Steve Grumbine:

nothing SOB, you're stealing from my plate." They don't look up, they don't look

Steve Grumbine:

at the rich. They don't. They look and they demonize their brothers and sisters.

Steve Grumbine:

The other people that are working class schmucks like myself that have to, you

Steve Grumbine:

know, go to work for a living, do whatever. And I mean, not saying

Steve Grumbine:

anything about the type of work we do or whatever issues that come as

Steve Grumbine:

a result of the type of output we have, it's just in general, we

Steve Grumbine:

have to work for a paycheck. And if we don't have a paycheck, we

Steve Grumbine:

lose everything. And so in a liberal, you know, version of the world, they're

Steve Grumbine:

still sitting... I mean, I remember the God blessed DNC [Democratic National Committee], what

Steve Grumbine:

was it in Chicago or whatever this year? And watching people protesting Gaza. And

Steve Grumbine:

I remember this black guy who's dressed in Prada, basically. Oh yeah, slings his

Steve Grumbine:

head back laughing.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

Yes, laughing. What a disgrace. That is a shitlib extraordinaire.

Steve Grumbine:

Someone so perverse, so grotesque, so unbearably liberal. And you

Steve Grumbine:

think to yourself, there's a genocide going on, homeboy bonanza.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

You're sitting there chuckling and laughing and throwing your head back

Steve Grumbine:

like a privileged SOB that you are. And it's because you

Steve Grumbine:

don't represent change. You don't represent resistance. There is no resistance

Steve Grumbine:

there. You are every bit as much a capitalist as the

Steve Grumbine:

other guys are. There's no difference there. Except in your world,

Steve Grumbine:

you'll go ahead and starve people with pittances and then act

Steve Grumbine:

like you're doing God's work, trying to save those pittances instead

Steve Grumbine:

of actually fight for meaningful, real change that fundamentally helps everyone.

David Fields:

Look at the timeline, like from Obama. "Hope and change. Hope and change." Okay, that,

David Fields:

where'd that get us? And then you had the last DNC and what was the

David Fields:

phrase that they kept saying? "We're not going back, we're not going back." And I'm

David Fields:

sitting here. Okay, well what the fuck does that mean? I'm sorry, part of my

David Fields:

Anglo-Saxon words, but really, what the fuck does that mean? It's like, "oh, don't worry,

David Fields:

don't worry, we're going to get together, we're going to say some positive words and

David Fields:

we're going to make sure that the most violent forces which we're experiencing now don't

David Fields:

happen. And we can go back to just taming the system which has been our

David Fields:

modus operating for years on end. Don't worry about it."

Steve Grumbine:

Brunch at 10.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

The more I think about it, right? And I bring this up because I feel like as part of that

Steve Grumbine:

cultural hegemony, people really have been conditioned to believe that they're going to vote their way out of this.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And I've tried to explain to anyone that'll listen, I mean, listen, I

Steve Grumbine:

have been a strong 15 year plus advocate for modern monetary theory even

Steve Grumbine:

though I haven't been regarded by some of the individuals whose books we

Steve Grumbine:

hump. I have absolutely been a non wavering staunch advocate for modern monetary

Steve Grumbine:

theory. And the idea that we are just going to "source the vote"

Steve Grumbine:

that we're going to just vote a few more progressives in and change

Steve Grumbine:

this, it fundamentally misses why none of that ever happens. It fundamentally skips

Steve Grumbine:

the hegemony, the actual elements that make. It's not an issue of facts.

Steve Grumbine:

We don't need facts. Every, nobody cares about the facts. They're not listening

Steve Grumbine:

to the facts. They're listening to the vibes and feels okay? And every

Steve Grumbine:

time I get into a discussion with people, they want to tell me

Steve Grumbine:

about tone, they want to tell me about, "Well, that was rather rude,

Steve Grumbine:

wasn't it?" And I'm like, "you're not getting this."

David Fields:

Exactly.

Steve Grumbine:

This is not a matter of ledgers. You're not waking up the world by explaining

Steve Grumbine:

how... Yes! Once they are awakened to the fact that these things could happen, you

Steve Grumbine:

can radicalize people. And that's my... Let's just be fair. That's my goal. I want

Steve Grumbine:

people to wake up and smell the coffee. Now, I'm not asking for anything beyond.

Steve Grumbine:

Because I'm not smart enough to tell people what to do once they've woken up.

Steve Grumbine:

I'm just asking people to wake up. And then I'm hoping that smart people come

Steve Grumbine:

together and make some different decisions. I don't know what that is. I'm not smart

Steve Grumbine:

enough to know what that is. I'm really not. And I don't think that there's

Steve Grumbine:

any kind of class struggle theory that really, truly understands the times we're living in,

Steve Grumbine:

the disproportionately underemployed or the lack of a central work area. There is none of

Steve Grumbine:

the things that happened back in the days of Lenin or Gramsci or any of

Steve Grumbine:

the other folks. It's a totally different world today and the rules are different. You've

Steve Grumbine:

got Palantir and you've got what's his name, [Larry] Ellison, who just bought TikTok and

Steve Grumbine:

owns Oracle and CNN and CBS and all the other things. You've got this guy

Steve Grumbine:

who's basically saying, "hey, we will record everything, we will observe everything. We will look

Steve Grumbine:

over you and the citizens will absolutely shudder and be well behaved because we are

Steve Grumbine:

your overlords and we are looking at you and we are monitoring you when we

Steve Grumbine:

were..." And it's like, tell me explain to me how we vote that away. Help

Steve Grumbine:

me understand how we vote that away.

David Fields:

I think George Orwell was pretty spot on.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah.

David Fields:

I mean, in 1984, and Animal Farm.

Steve Grumbine:

You can't.

David Fields:

And sure, voting can give you some benefits. There's no question. I

David Fields:

mean, there's empirical evidence to concretize that. But in a bourgeois democracy,

David Fields:

it can only go so far. Because that voting or that platform,

David Fields:

that manifestation, gives the appearance that one can say, "well, if I

David Fields:

just gather folks up and get the ballots, get the signatures, deliver

David Fields:

my piece to the floor, things will follow suit. So I can

David Fields:

pursue the legislation that I want to see and social justice can

David Fields:

follow suit." Well, this 19th century social theorist, who I think everyone

David Fields:

should read, and I think you know who I'm talking about, said

David Fields:

that every now and then the masses come. Who's going to vote

David Fields:

to exploit them next? And that's pretty concrete. Which was concrete back

David Fields:

then and remains quite relevant and significant today.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah. And, you know, when I say we don't live in a democracy, I mean this. First of

Steve Grumbine:

all, we are NOT a democracy. And I know this seems like one of those difference without distinction

Steve Grumbine:

kind of moments. They always say, "oh, it's a republic or it's this or that and the other."

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

But we really, truly do not live in a democracy. And you could see this

Steve Grumbine:

every time you go to primary times, right? We're going to have a primary now

Steve Grumbine:

for whatever the Democratic Party. And the party bosses, the powerful, the elites say, "Yeah,

Steve Grumbine:

you know, we're just not that interested in having a primary this time. So, no,

Steve Grumbine:

we're not going to let it happen because we are a private corporation, AKA more

Steve Grumbine:

of the capitalist society and more of this private ownership, more of this not public.

Steve Grumbine:

We're going to make the rules and we're going to...

David Fields:

That's a structural means of enforcing syndrome, which I talked about.

Steve Grumbine:

Yes! And that's the point. Right? Is how in the world do we make

Steve Grumbine:

people stop being children? Baby bibs and milk and mother's milk and, like, you

Steve Grumbine:

know, warm cookies and cream and onesie pajamas and stuff like that. How do

Steve Grumbine:

we get them to stop lying to us and stop lying and stop curtsying

Steve Grumbine:

and stop bowing and stop pretending that it's all about rudeness and politeness and

Steve Grumbine:

bullshit, when in reality, if you watched ICE beating the taste out of that

Steve Grumbine:

woman's mouth whose husband got taken away and, you know, shot and everything. We're

Steve Grumbine:

talking about a whole different timeline here. And we're talking about people that are

Steve Grumbine:

selling normiedom when people have a gun to your head.

David Fields:

Yep.

Steve Grumbine:

I wonder. It's like, you know, yes, we agree on ledgers, but

Steve Grumbine:

my God, are your eyes not open? And I mean this lovingly,

Steve Grumbine:

because I don't understand why this pretense of we can vote our

Steve Grumbine:

way out of this exists, why they're pretending that we live in

Steve Grumbine:

a situation. They're already propping up Buttigieg and Kamala again.

David Fields:

Yep.

Steve Grumbine:

They're already rebooting that garbage again.

David Fields:

And I'm not shocked, because that's the whole point. The whole point

David Fields:

is theater, a front stage, a celebratory encapsulation to say that, "look,

David Fields:

give us a chance, and we're going to be your saviors." Sorry,

David Fields:

this hope in a hopeless world has run its course.

Steve Grumbine:

Kamala said the other day. I'm gonna read this just real quick.

David Fields:

Yeah, go ahead.

Steve Grumbine:

It is so hilarious. And I say this as somebody

Steve Grumbine:

who genuinely doesn't care. Right? Because I. I don't believe

Steve Grumbine:

any of this is real. Okay? But she said on

Steve Grumbine:

MSNBC, September, 2025, that "Trump is a communist dictator."

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

I want you to realize for the kids in the back row that

Steve Grumbine:

maybe don't know this stuff. Communism, socialism in general is about worker ownership,

Steve Grumbine:

worker empowerment. It is not about free stuff. It's not about, like, welfare

Steve Grumbine:

state. It's not about those things. It really is genuinely about workers owning

Steve Grumbine:

the means of production as opposed to some rich fat cat, sucking off

Steve Grumbine:

their labor and alienating them from the product of their labor. Now, if

Steve Grumbine:

you call that radical, you got a bizarre world that you're living in

Steve Grumbine:

there. If you think that's radical, this is who they're going to prop

Steve Grumbine:

up. She literally called Trump a communist dictator.

David Fields:

I fell off my chair.

Steve Grumbine:

Seriously. I mean, is this more cultural hegemony where they don't even question, they just

Steve Grumbine:

flap their wings like seals? Circus seals. I mean, what. What's up with that?

David Fields:

Yeah, but one could look at it and say that this is just an

David Fields:

aberration, But I would argue no, this is another part and parcel of the

David Fields:

system which is meant to facilitate a constant flux of uncertainty and trying to

David Fields:

make sense in the senseless, godforsaken world we live in, where you can't make

David Fields:

sense of it because you have these distractions like that. Another example involving Kamala

David Fields:

Harris was she was giving a lecture about this new book that she just

David Fields:

published, which I'm not going to read, I have no care for it, where

David Fields:

there were protesters, wonderful human beings that came and said, you are responsible for

David Fields:

giving [Israeli Prime Minister] Netanyahu the means to facilitate his holocaust against Palestinians right

David Fields:

now. And you know what Kamala said in response? Unlike what she said during

David Fields:

her presidential campaign where she says, "I'm speaking..." as a means to shut those

David Fields:

demonstrators up. Do you know what she said at this moment?

Steve Grumbine:

What's that?

David Fields:

She said, "well, I'm not the president." That was her response. Now,

David Fields:

if that's not a clear indication that she is just like the

David Fields:

disgusting rot like the rest of them, I don't know what is.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah, you know, I'm going to take a step back with this real quick

Steve Grumbine:

and just say that, you know, as part of this deluge of chaos that

Steve Grumbine:

just keeps hitting us, these twisted inversions of words and so very Orwellian. Right?

David Fields:

There's a whole point to it. It's an instrument,

David Fields:

this constant means of facilitating confusion and distraction and

David Fields:

disorientation is a psychological, manipulative, systemic entity to entrench

David Fields:

that misrecognition I talked about. So those pathologies which

David Fields:

I talked about before, the psychosocial pathologies maintain this

David Fields:

destructive system that we live in.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah. One of the other things that I wanted to bring up, and I'll give you a... 

David Fields:

I didn't mean to interrupt. Go ahead.

Steve Grumbine:

No, it's. This is a conversation, bro. If I go on too long, you

Steve Grumbine:

have every right to cut my ass off. Excuse my French. But I want

Steve Grumbine:

to just read something to you, and this is very important to me personally.

Steve Grumbine:

Okay? I come from a Christian background. Okay? My recovery from alcoholism came as

Steve Grumbine:

a direct result of my faith and working through step programs and dealing with

Steve Grumbine:

people of all shapes and sizes, walks of life, from homeless people that are

Steve Grumbine:

toothless to the wealthy and powerful, who all are equally afflicted by alcoholism. It's

Steve Grumbine:

a disease, right? But there was one guy who I got turned on to

Steve Grumbine:

during my walk as a Christian. Now, mind you, I was not raised in

Steve Grumbine:

a Christian household. My mom and dad were marginally... You know, they had Bibles

Steve Grumbine:

around and pictures of Jesus here and there with Reagan. And, love you, mom

Steve Grumbine:

and dad. But let's be fair. I mean, we weren't going to church on

Steve Grumbine:

Sundays and so forth. My mom later in life did, but that wasn't the

Steve Grumbine:

way we were raised. I came to this as a last ditch effort to

Steve Grumbine:

survive from addiction. I was turned on to a guy, a great Lutheran theologian

Steve Grumbine:

named Dietrich Bonhoeffer. And Bonhoeffer was part of the resistance against Adolf Hitler back

Steve Grumbine:

in World War II. And he was captured once by the Nazis and he

Steve Grumbine:

was rescued out of Auschwitz, I believe it was, by the Brits. And he

Steve Grumbine:

could have lived out his life safe. And he's like, "nah, I can't be

Steve Grumbine:

part of a new Germany if I don't go back." He went back to

Steve Grumbine:

Germany within, like two weeks, was captured, and he was hung right before the

Steve Grumbine:

Allies took Auschwitz. But all the Nazi guards talked about what a great man

Steve Grumbine:

of faith he was, as he would stand there as the bombs would be

Steve Grumbine:

falling, and he would be steadfast and not shaken. He was just at peace.

Steve Grumbine:

And he would talk to them about peace and about love and about altering

Steve Grumbine:

their worldview. And I have no idea how many people he changed or was

Steve Grumbine:

able to somehow or another "convert" or whatever, but there was a great many

Steve Grumbine:

firsthand testimonies of it. But he wrote a book called The Cost of Discipleship.

Steve Grumbine:

And I think this is important given how this is being used as the

Steve Grumbine:

measuring stick for whether a person is fit to be an American these days.

Steve Grumbine:

Right? They, "oh, you know, normal family values, American values" and so forth. And

Steve Grumbine:

I say to myself, "okay, well, if we want to break out the Bible,

Steve Grumbine:

I am totally down for the cost because I was studying to be a

Steve Grumbine:

minister years ago and I kind of know my stuff a little bit." And

Steve Grumbine:

so this quote is really important, and it is really one of the key

Steve Grumbine:

quotes from Dietrich Bonhoeffer's Cost of Discipleship, where he talks about cheap grace. What

Steve Grumbine:

he says is: "Cheap grace is preaching forgiveness without requiring repentance, Baptism without church

Steve Grumbine:

discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship,

Steve Grumbine:

grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ living and incarnate. Costly grace is

Steve Grumbine:

the treasure hidden in the field for the sake of a man will go

Steve Grumbine:

and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to

Steve Grumbine:

buy which the merchant will sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule

Steve Grumbine:

of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes

Steve Grumbine:

him to stumble. It is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple

Steve Grumbine:

leaves his nets and follows him. Costly grace is the gospel which must be

Steve Grumbine:

sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for the door at

Steve Grumbine:

which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to

Steve Grumbine:

follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It

Steve Grumbine:

is costly because it costs a man his life. And it is grace because

Steve Grumbine:

it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns

Steve Grumbine:

sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because

Steve Grumbine:

it costs God the life of his Son. Ye were bought at a price.

Steve Grumbine:

And what has cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it

Steve Grumbine:

is grace because God did not reckon his Son too dear a price to

Steve Grumbine:

pay for our life, but delivered him up for us. Costly grace is the

Steve Grumbine:

incarnation of God. The gospel makes much of sin because Jesus died to redeem

Steve Grumbine:

us from our sins, to pay the penalty for our sins. And the more

Steve Grumbine:

we can appreciate sin, the more we can appreciate grace, the more we can

Steve Grumbine:

appreciate the gospel and what Jesus died. Because he didn't die a horrific death

Steve Grumbine:

on the cross to show us that sin didn't matter. We see the cost

Steve Grumbine:

of sin at the cross." And I read that not to preach the word

Steve Grumbine:

of God so that everybody's like, oh, I read that because if you are

Steve Grumbine:

going to say you're MAGA. If you are going to try to stand on

Steve Grumbine:

high and speak this stuff. Show me this grace. Show me this grace. Because

Steve Grumbine:

grace is all it is, if that's what you're talking about. And I'll be

Steve Grumbine:

honest with you, I see zero grace in Republican Jesus. I see zero grace

Steve Grumbine:

in MAGA Jesus. I see zero grace. All I see is white supremacy and

Steve Grumbine:

quite frankly, fascism. I don't see anything that would even remotely resemble the kind

Steve Grumbine:

of sacrifice and the kind of love that people in sobriety find every day

Steve Grumbine:

when they try to get themselves straight. And I say it knowing you're a

Steve Grumbine:

Jew and I'm a Christian and here we are talking and hey...

David Fields:

Nobody's perfect. It's okay.

Steve Grumbine:

Well, and there in which it is though, right? You can have people of differing beliefs

Steve Grumbine:

and different thoughts and so forth without having to demonize and kill somebody over it. And

Steve Grumbine:

at the same time though, there IS a lot of pain and suffering that comes from

Steve Grumbine:

this kind of fascist inclination that demonizes people and turns them into "other".  Others, them and

Steve Grumbine:

makes them the scapegoat and makes them the ire of an entire group of people. And

Steve Grumbine:

in lockstep. Because what happens when you go to a church, David? What happens is you

Steve Grumbine:

let your guard down, you open up your head, you open up your heart, and the

Steve Grumbine:

guy pours whatever he's pouring into you and you think about it and you wrestle with

Steve Grumbine:

it and so forth, but you have allowed yourself to be as a child where these

Steve Grumbine:

words become part and parcel with who you are. And if they're preaching hate, if they're

Steve Grumbine:

preaching the kinds of othering that was never part of the red letters, whether you're a

Steve Grumbine:

Christian or not, the red letters are beautiful words. There's no hate involved. None. It's nothing

Steve Grumbine:

but love and acceptance. In fact, when they ask Jesus, at least in the Bible, whether

Steve Grumbine:

you believe it or not, the Bible says, so to speak, what is the greatest commandment.

Steve Grumbine:

And he says "to love one another." [Yeah] Period. They didn't see it and go into

Steve Grumbine:

a bunch of stuff. "Only them Republic, only those Democrats, only those whites, blacks, whatever". He

Steve Grumbine:

said "love one another." And so when I think about the hegemony and I think about

Steve Grumbine:

capitalism and I think about the end around it does to destroy our brains, destroy our

Steve Grumbine:

minds, to destroy our souls. And I think about the very idea that Republican Jesus is

Steve Grumbine:

being used as a weapon as opposed to the biblical Jesus that doesn't say any of

Steve Grumbine:

those things.

David Fields:

I hate to interject, but...

Steve Grumbine:

No, please.

David Fields:

It reminds me when I used to teach, I used to say, "students, I'm not religious and I'm

David Fields:

not here to preach, et cetera, et cetera. But are you familiar with the Sermon on the Mount?"

Steve Grumbine:

Oh, wow.

David Fields:

I would get a lot of hands up, and they're like, "yeah, blessed are the poor, et cetera, et cetera, et

David Fields:

cetera." Okay. And then I would say, "do you think that it's good to say that, repeat it, study it, emphasize

David Fields:

it when you go to services on the weekend? They say, "yeah, of course." Okay. And I'm like, "oh, great.  Okay,

David Fields:

that's great. Again, you know, I'm not religious, I'm not preaching, but that's good to know." And then I would ask

David Fields:

like, "well, do you think it's not good to then forget about the rest of the week?"

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah.

David Fields:

And it got them thinking, like, "well, what do you mean? Why is this some bullshit

David Fields:

you say on the weekend, but then forget about the rest of the time?" If it's

David Fields:

holy, if it's essential, if it's celebratory, etcetera, and has deep, deep meaning, why is it

David Fields:

obstructed? And then forget about and used it for unsavory intentions, or not even used, but

David Fields:

just completely disregarded on Monday? And they'd be like, "where are you getting at?" And I'm

David Fields:

like, "what I'm getting at is this. Does this have meaning? Is this a distraction? Does

David Fields:

this give a false sense of, like, makes you feel whole? And if it makes you

David Fields:

feel whole, why does it seem alien on Wednesday?"

Steve Grumbine:

Amen.

David Fields:

Wow.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah.

David Fields:

And they didn't know how to answer, but that's what I wanted. Because if

David Fields:

you don't know how to answer it, that means you're starting to think and

David Fields:

say, "huh? What does it really mean?" And now in Judaism, you have tikkun

David Fields:

olam, which is similar. And tikkun olam is about the practice, the praxis.

Steve Grumbine:

Yes.

David Fields:

Where you treat each and every person with dignity, respect, because we're all part

David Fields:

of the same community. We're humans connected, where we should strive to make sure

David Fields:

everyone is respected and nobody has to suffer from anything. And I'm like, that's

David Fields:

great. That's wonderful. And that's something I held onto when I was in Hebrew

David Fields:

school and I was going through my bar mitzvah studies, et cetera. This is

David Fields:

great. I tried to live by it. I tried to do it, which in

David Fields:

Judaism, we call mikvah. Why are we systematically denying it? Israel and in other

David Fields:

areas. Right? Why do we have this thing called Israel in the first [place].

David Fields:

That's antithetical to what this all means? And I think I told you this

David Fields:

once before I was called anti Semitic. And I'm just sitting there like, what?

David Fields:

So, yeah, I'm a self hating Jew. That's apropos. But I say that story

David Fields:

in connection with the other story because it gets at the point like, what

David Fields:

the fuck does this all mean? This is great. But is this to say

David Fields:

that, "okay, it gives you that nice touchy feeling so you can stay in

David Fields:

the matrix and not see what's outside of it, or is it a tool

David Fields:

to help you get out of the matrix and destroy that software program?"

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah, I love that you brought the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes and all that stuff, but one of

Steve Grumbine:

the things that really jumped out to me was the one time where you really got to see J.C. angry.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And that was dealing with the money changers in the temple. It's

Steve Grumbine:

easier for a camel to climb up a pyramid or something like

Steve Grumbine:

that than for a rich person to enter into the kingdom of

Steve Grumbine:

heaven. And you think about this, there's a reason for that, right?

Steve Grumbine:

Like, I think ultimately when you consider that, in my estimation, Jesus,

Steve Grumbine:

however you view him, was the first communist. I mean, the early

Steve Grumbine:

church was very much a communal space.

David Fields:

Yeah, absolutely.

Steve Grumbine:

We bear with one another, we help one another, we feed one another. We

Steve Grumbine:

don't ask them, "hey, did you earn enough yet? You don't deserve to eat

Steve Grumbine:

there, boy. What are you looking at? You sonna bitch." None of that.

David Fields:

None of it.

Steve Grumbine:

And so for me, debunking, I've made it my own personal mission, aside from

Steve Grumbine:

MMT and these other things, to reclaim Jesus from MAGA and to reclaim Jesus

Steve Grumbine:

from those guys over there. My old pastor was a messianic Jew, he called himself....

David Fields:

A messianic Jew...! Oh...

Steve Grumbine:

He was fully Jewish, but he believed in Jesus and he taught. His name was

Steve Grumbine:

Rob Schenck. And I've watched him. He is. I don't practice the way I did

Steve Grumbine:

anymore. I find it very challenging to be around right wing thinking at all. But

Steve Grumbine:

he did too, and he really fought the Trump narrative and watching so many Christians

Steve Grumbine:

fall into this thing. And, you know, I'm not here to act like any of

Steve Grumbine:

these things are good because they work together. Both of these groups are not like

Steve Grumbine:

working class people. This is part of the oligarchy, the power elite that has shared

Steve Grumbine:

interests and there are differences of what each want, but not much. They both stand

Steve Grumbine:

for AI, they both stand for domination. They both stand for fattening the wealthy and

Steve Grumbine:

literally using austerity on the poor.

David Fields:

It's [German philosopher Freidrich] Nietzsche's concept of slave morality, which is to keep this at bay.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah.

David Fields:

Now, people like to poo poo Nietzsche that he gave the philosophical foundations to

David Fields:

fascism. That may or not be true, regardless. What I'm saying is that he

David Fields:

did come up with this concept how such forces can facilitate a sense of

David Fields:

loss, which therefore translates into subjugation and subservience, which he called the slave morality.

Steve Grumbine:

Yep.

David Fields:

And if that is not a complete essence of the system we live in, I don't know what is.

Steve Grumbine:

Well, think about what you just said. Like, I want to add to this and build on this momentarily as we close things out.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

I think it's really important to consider who we think of as the bad guy.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

Right? When I look at slavery and I think to myself, if I

Steve Grumbine:

was a slave and my wife was a slave and my kids were

Steve Grumbine:

slaves and the slave owner, to calm us down because we were getting

Steve Grumbine:

uppity, took my wife and sent her off to be sold elsewhere.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And whipped my children in front of me to make sure that I bit

Steve Grumbine:

my tongue. And maybe cut the tongue out of one of my children because

Steve Grumbine:

they scream too loud or something like that. The idea that they would be

Steve Grumbine:

wrong for violence against the slave master is what is being preached today by

Steve Grumbine:

the powers that be. How dare you be such a radical to say that's

Steve Grumbine:

not okay. ICE and all the other things. How dare you do that? And

Steve Grumbine:

to me, we've literally turned what we know to be true on its head

Steve Grumbine:

to make it work within this sick culture that we live in.

David Fields:

Yeah. It's the pathology.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah. I want you to take us out. David. That was my tee for

Steve Grumbine:

you to put the bow on not only your article, but this conversation.

David Fields:

Yeah. And that hit the nail on the head. It's these psychosocial

David Fields:

pathologies to turn on its head what we know to be true

David Fields:

and essential and of utmost importance for with respect to humanity, turn

David Fields:

it on its head and have folks who become willing servants to

David Fields:

the oppression, to the oppressive system that essentially oppresses them. That's why

David Fields:

you see how working class folks support these fascist tendencies. And to

David Fields:

learn both to say, "oh, they don't know they're dumb, they're stupid,

David Fields:

they have no sense of what it means to do this, et

David Fields:

cetera, et cetera." And I say, "no, no, no, no, no, no,

David Fields:

no. Why are they doing this?" Because they've been caught up in

David Fields:

a system that turns their interests against them. Because there are levers,

David Fields:

there are instruments, I'm sorry, that are symbolically, interpersonally and structurally violent.

David Fields:

To ensure, through violent ways more explicit nowadays, that the system that

David Fields:

is against them sustains itself and reproduces itself.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah. All right, listen, folks. David, for taking the time to

Steve Grumbine:

do this. Thank you for indulging my sermonizing from Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

David Fields:

You bet.

Steve Grumbine:

Folks, I promise you, this is not intended to be

Steve Grumbine:

a, you know, a church session. That's not my intent.

David Fields:

It's okay.

Steve Grumbine:

Yeah. You know what? At some level, these are the narratives.

David Fields:

Yep.

Steve Grumbine:

That are out there. I'm watching the daughter of one of my friends who works with us.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

Who came home with a, you know, I am Charlie Kirk shirt. Not I

Steve Grumbine:

am George Floyd shirt. Not a,  I am whatever. But I am Charlie Kirk.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And it's a tragedy when anyone gets killed. It is. Period. I don't know what the plan for them would have been

Steve Grumbine:

had they. You know, maybe they would have changed. Maybe. Who knows? Right? You never know. I don't. I'm not here to.

Steve Grumbine:

I have never owned a gun in my life, and I'm not a violent person. That is not who I am.

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

So I want to be very crystal clear on that. But

Steve Grumbine:

when you see this stuff, it's like the cultural hegemony of

Steve Grumbine:

that movement has turned misogyny into something to be proud of.

Steve Grumbine:

It's turned racism into something to be proud of. Homophobia and

Steve Grumbine:

just absolute xenophobic bigotry into something to be proud of. And

Steve Grumbine:

they're calling it "traditional American values"? And I think to myself,

Steve Grumbine:

"wow, I don't want my kids being poisoned with this hate."

David Fields:

Yeah.

Steve Grumbine:

And yet this is what's coming, man. This is what's coming. So I appreciate you

Steve Grumbine:

allowing me to crack open my biblical knowledge a little bit there. And my...

David Fields:

You're good, man. I like it.

Steve Grumbine:

I appreciate it. All right, let me take us out then, folks. My

Steve Grumbine:

name is Steve Grumbine. I am the host of this podcast, Macro N

Steve Grumbine:

Cheese, and also the founder of the 501[c]3 nonprofit Real Progressives. We are

Steve Grumbine:

not a political organization. We do not focus on any elections whatsoever. But

Steve Grumbine:

we do talk about the topics and subjects surrounding macroeconomics, and we do

Steve Grumbine:

try and educate. We use the intersection of class struggle, working class people.

Steve Grumbine:

Like much of the folks that are MAGA. There's blue collar folks that

Steve Grumbine:

are striving in their own way, but have been captured by a rhetoric

Steve Grumbine:

that is just. I don't know, just not good. Toxic. And we're trying

Steve Grumbine:

to intersect an understanding of MMT and class struggle and trying to help

Steve Grumbine:

people see the world just a little bit differently so that they see

Steve Grumbine:

each other not as enemies, but as friends, as people of the same

Steve Grumbine:

struggle. And not to demonize one another, but to come together. Because there

Steve Grumbine:

is no way that this divided political system that we live in will

Steve Grumbine:

ever produce the kind of working class solidarity that is necessary to change

Steve Grumbine:

the world. Well, I guess I want to say, hey, we live and

Steve Grumbine:

die on your contributions. So if you would consider becoming a donor, you

Steve Grumbine:

can go to our website realprogressives.org you can go to our Substack, substack.com/real

Steve Grumbine:

progressives. You can also go to Patreon and you can become a monthly

Steve Grumbine:

donor there as well at patreon.com/real progressives, we need your support. And if

Steve Grumbine:

you think that the work that we're doing is interesting, thought provoking, worthy

Steve Grumbine:

of your support, we welcome your support. And thanks to great guests like

Steve Grumbine:

David Fields who's joined me today and others. I mean we have been

Steve Grumbine:

going non stop now for seven years and I hope that folks go

Steve Grumbine:

back to episode one and listen to all 350 that we've got. We've

Steve Grumbine:

never missed a week and we don't plan on missing a week. And

Steve Grumbine:

as long as you guys can keep the lights on for us, we'll

Steve Grumbine:

keep moving forward. So without further ado, I bid you adieu on behalf

Steve Grumbine:

of my guest, David Fields, myself Steve Grumbine, the podcast Macro N Cheese.

Steve Grumbine:

We are out of here.

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About the Podcast

Macro N Cheese
The MMT podcast for the people!
A podcast that critically examines the working-class struggle through the lens of MMT or Modern Monetary Theory. Host Steve Grumbine, founder of Real Progressives, provides incisive political commentary and showcases grassroots activism. Join us for a robust, unfiltered exploration of economic issues that impact the working class, as we challenge the status quo and prioritize collective well-being over profit. This is comfort food for the mind, fueling our fight for justice and equity!
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Steven Grumbine

Steve is a lot more than just the host of Macro N Cheese, he's the founder and CEO of two nonprofits and the “less is more" project manager! He uses his extensive knowledge of project management, macroeconomics and history to help listeners gain a vision of what our future could look like.